Today I am honored to share the story of Drew Manning - author, TV star, and founder of the viral brand, "Fit2Fat2Fit." In part 1 of Drew's story, we will discuss, among other things:

• His upbringing in Mormonism
• LDS mission in Brazil
• Marriage & pornography use in a Mormon marriage, followed by the LDS church addiction recovery program
• Their eventual divorce
• Learning about problematic church history & the 2015 LGBT+ exclusion policy
• The Fit2Fat2Fit story & Drew’s mission to bring empathy to fitness

Show notes:

• Fit2Fat2Fit: The Unexpected Lessons from Gaining and Losing 75lbs on Purpose by Drew Manning
• Complete Keto: A Guide to Transforming Your Body and Your Mind for Life by Drew Manning
• Loving What Is by Byron Katie
• Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead by Brené Brown
• Rising Strong: How the Ability to Reset Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead by Brené Brown
• The State of Affairs: Rethinking Infidelity by Esther Perel

Join me today for this truly inspiring interview with Lance Allred, the grandson of Rulon C. Allred - the prophet of a fundamentalist polygamous sect called the “Apostolic United Brethren." In addition to this, Lance is the first legally-deaf player in NBA history, an inspirational speaker (including a highly successful TedX presentation, "What is Your Polygamy?"), and celebrated author of six books, including his most recent publication, “The New Alpha Male: How to Win the Game When the Rules are Changing.”

Join along as we discuss the concepts of misogyny, toxic masculinity, how they function within religions, and how we can begin to combat and "unlearn" these unhealthy habits.

More books by Lance Allred:

• Lanceallred41 Daily Perseverance Tracker

• Basketball Gods

• How to Give the Million View TEDx Talk: What is Your Polygamy?

• The Pesaro Poems

• Longshot: The Adventures of a Deaf Fundamentalist Mormon Kid and His Journey to the NBA

• The New Alpha Male: How to Win the Game When the Rules Are Changing

JT & Lady Cee were raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses from the age of five years old. Lady Cee was a regular pioneer and went to serve where the need is great with her pioneer partners. JT served at Brooklyn Bethel and was an elder in the local congregation.

After spending a combined 60 years of Watchtower indoctrination, they discovered that something was seriously wrong with the 1914 teaching. This led them to doing more research and after reading Crisis of Conscience by former Governing Body Member Raymond Franz, they faded from the organization. JT & Lady Cee realize the importance of giving back to help those they left behind. Therefore, in 2013, they began hosting the Critical Thought podcast on the EXJW Critical Thinker YouTube channel. Their decision to join their voice with the community of other Ex-JW activists is resulting in many happy endings as individuals begin waking up and learning the real truth about “The Truth.”

Learn more about them on their website and other social media outlets.

In this four-part episode, Trevor Haugen shares with us a recording of his conversation with LDS General Authority Don R. Clarke and LDS church historian Dr. Matthew J. Grow as they attempt to address his mounting concerns with deeply troubling Mormon history and doctrine.

Part 1: Trevor discusses his life as an orthodox Mormon believer, including his mission service and temple marriages.

Part 2: An audio recording of the meeting between Mormon General Authority Elder Don R. Clarke, LDS Church Historian Dr. Matthew J. Grow, and Trevor Haugen.

Parts 3 & 4: A panel including Lindsay Hansen Park, John Hamer, and Glenn Ostlund, moderated by Dr. John Dehlin, discusses the audio recording, and particularly analyzes the apologetics offered by Elder Clarke and Dr. Matthew Grow.

In this four-part episode, Trevor Haugen shares with us a recording of his conversation with LDS General Authority Don R. Clarke and LDS church historian Dr. Matthew J. Grow as they attempt to address his mounting concerns with deeply troubling Mormon history and doctrine.

Part 1: Trevor discusses his life as an orthodox Mormon believer, including his mission service and temple marriages.

Part 2: An audio recording of the meeting between Mormon General Authority Elder Don R. Clarke, LDS Church Historian Dr. Matthew J. Grow, and Trevor Haugen.

Parts 3 & 4: A panel including Lindsay Hansen Park, John Hamer, and Glenn Ostlund, moderated by Dr. John Dehlin, discusses the audio recording, and particularly analyzes the apologetics offered by Elder Clarke and Dr. Matthew Grow.

In this four-part episode, Trevor Haugen shares with us a recording of his conversation with LDS General Authority Don R. Clarke and LDS church historian Dr. Matthew J. Grow as they attempt to address his mounting concerns with deeply troubling Mormon history and doctrine.

Part 1: Trevor discusses his life as an orthodox Mormon believer, including his mission service and temple marriages.

Part 2: An audio recording of the meeting between Mormon General Authority Elder Don R. Clarke, LDS Church Historian Dr. Matthew J. Grow, and Trevor Haugen.

Parts 3 & 4: A panel including Lindsay Hansen Park, John Hamer, and Glenn Ostlund, moderated by Dr. John Dehlin, discusses the audio recording, and particularly analyzes the apologetics offered by Elder Clarke and Dr. Matthew Grow.

JT & Lady Cee were raised as Jehovah’s Witnesses from the age of five years old. Lady Cee was a regular pioneer and went to serve where the need is great with her pioneer partners. JT served at Brooklyn Bethel and was an elder in the local congregation.

After spending a combined 60 years of Watchtower indoctrination, they discovered that something was seriously wrong with the 1914 teaching. This led them to doing more research and after reading Crisis of Conscience by former Governing Body Member Raymond Franz, they faded from the organization. JT & Lady Cee realize the importance of giving back to help those they left behind. Therefore, in 2013, they began hosting the Critical Thought podcast on the EXJW Critical Thinker YouTube channel. Their decision to join their voice with the community of other Ex-JW activists is resulting in many happy endings as individuals begin waking up and learning the real truth about “The Truth.” Learn more about them on their website and other social media outlets.

Join me today as I sit down with a living legend, Rod Decker, who has gained great prominence in Utah over the past 50 years as a journalist, columnist, and reporter for KUTV Channel 2 news. An observer of Utah politics from an early age, Decker has a truly unique perspective on Utah culture, faith, and politics, and I could not be more honored to have him as a guest on Mormon Stories Podcast.

Rod Decker's most recent publication, "Utah Politics: The Elephant in the Room" can be purchased here.

Marriage, Family, & Sex therapist, Natasha Helfer, hosts this special edition of Mormon Stories Podcast with John & Margi Dehlin, as they discuss the aftermath of Natasha's trial for apostasy and excommunication from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Join us now for Part 3 of what many are calling a truly groundbreaking Mormon Stories Podcast series - my interview with teen convert, former All-American athlete, and former Mormon seminary teacher and CES employee Marc Oslund.

In today's episode Marc shares with us:

• An insider's view of how the Mormon church began realizing that it was hemorrhaging its youth and young adults, and how the church has experimented in seminary/institute/CES with both "inoculation" and "avoidance" when confronting its long-denied problematic history.
• How the Mormon church relied on Terryl Givens and other progressive Mormons to help re-train Mormon CES employees, the backlash that ensued from orthodox instructors and managers, and how the Mormon church worked hard to simultaneously distance itself from Terryl Givens' teachings.
• An observation that Mormon apostles no longer act as guardians of doctrine and theology, and how they have now "outsourced" that work to progressive theologians like Terryl Givens and others, in part so that they can maintain plausible deniability.
• Marc's transition from an orthodox Mormon to a progressive/liberal (Terryl Givens)-type Mormon as a Mormon seminary teacher, in response to the training the church provided him, and how that ultimately undermined his own career in CES.
• How Marc was ultimately and literally pushed out of CES for explicitly following the advice of Mormon apostles like Elder Ballard to openly discuss the problematic issues.
• How the CES System continues to promote orthodox leaders in spite of its lip service to promoting openness and tolerance for diversity.

You will not regret the length and depth of this interview.

Join us today as we continue with part two of our three-part interview with former baseball player and LDS seminary teacher, Marc Oslund. Fascinating for so many reasons, I believe this is one of the most important Mormon Stories Podcast episodes I've ever released.

• Marc was a heavily recruited high school baseball and football player in the L.A., California area.
• He converted to the Mormon church as a teen.
• He was drafted to the baseball Major Leagues three different times, and turned down those offers to go on an LDS mission and to BYU.
• He was an all-American baseball player at BYU.
• He served an LDS mission where he was often racked with guilt and shame - almost sent home for it.
• When his baseball career ended (due to post-mission injuries), he became a Mormon CES seminary teacher, and served from around 2013 to 2019 - while the Mormon church was trying to become more open/honest about its history, and deal with public activists like Kate Kelly, myself, Sam Young, Jeremy Runnells, etc.
• Even though he constantly had doubts/questions/concerns, his position as a seminary teacher caused major rifts in his marriage when his wife expressed occasional doubts, specifically about the Mormon temple ceremony.
• Marc became a liberal/progressive/Givens Mormon while a seminary teacher - but was punished by CES for his progressive stances.
• Marc ultimately lost his orthodox Mormon faith as a seminary teacher, and was pressured to quit his job.

In part 2 of his story, we will hear about Marc's experience working for the Church Educational System as a seminary teacher, his attempts to be open with students about church doctrines, and why he eventually began to question the leadership of the LDS church - all while working within the CES program.

Join us today as we kick off our three-part interview with former baseball player and LDS seminary teacher, Marc Oslund. Fascinating for so many reasons, I believe this is one of the most important Mormon Stories Podcast episodes I've ever released.

• Marc was a heavily recruited high school baseball and football player in the L.A., California area.
• He converted to the Mormon church as a teen.
• He was drafted to the baseball Major Leagues three different times, and turned down those offers to go on an LDS mission and to BYU.
• He was an all-American baseball player at BYU.
• He served an LDS mission where he was often racked with guilt and shame - almost sent home for it.
• When his baseball career ended (due to post-mission injuries), he became a Mormon CES seminary teacher, and served from around 2013 to 2019 - while the Mormon church was trying to become more open/honest about its history, and deal with public activists like Kate Kelly, myself, Sam Young, Jeremy Runnells, etc.
• Even though he constantly had doubts/questions/concerns, his position as a seminary teacher caused major rifts in his marriage when his wife expressed occasional doubts, specifically about the Mormon temple ceremony.
• Marc became a liberal/progressive/Givens Mormon while a seminary teacher - but was punished by CES for his progressive stances.
• Marc ultimately lost his orthodox Mormon faith as a seminary teacher, and was pressured to quit his job.

In part 1 of this incredible story, Marc talks about his upbringing in LA, his conversion to Mormonism, and why he gave up multiple opportunities to play major-league baseball in order to pursue a career in the Church Education System.

This is a long one...probably deserves its own podcast...but it's really, really important. I hope you enjoy.

As the COVID pandemic begins to slow in Spring of 2021, we are seeing a surge in vocal Mormon church members being summoned to disciplinary councils for excommunication on the charges of apostasy. Last week Natasha Helfer was excommunicated from the Mormon church for nothing less than advocating for ethical mental health and sexuality. Today we interview Neesha and Kyle Brost, who were recently threatened with excommunication by their Mormon leaders for posting videos to their very popular TikTok channel.

This is Neesha and Kyle's Mormon Story

Join us as we talk to Shannon Flynn, who was an associate of bomber and forger Mark Hofmann, as well as a major figure in the new Netflix documentary "Murder Among the Mormons."

Please join us now as we interview Marriage and Sex therapist Natasha Helfer as she discusses her pending Mormon disciplinary council for apostasy.

Today we have Shannon Flynn and Tonya and Scott Reiter in studio to remember the life of their friend, Lyn Jacob’s, associate of Mormon forger and bomber Mark Hofmann.

Returning Mormon Stories Podcast guest, Roger Hendrix, is a former LDS Bishop, Mission President, and CES director, and was also called by Gorden B. Hinkley as a Trustee for the Deseret Trust Company for 18 years. And as if that weren't enough, Roger also worked as a business Management Consultant for 35 years, and did a syndicated daily radio commentary on social, political, and economic trends for nine years.

Join Roger and myself today as we provide an analysis of the LDS church as a multi-billion-dollar corporation, and discuss "the future of Mormonism" - as Roger sees it.

Books by Roger Hendrix:

• Bend, Create, and Plan Your Future, author Roger Hendrix
• Choosing the Dream, The future of Religion in American Public Life. Co- authored with Fred Gedicks
• Leverage Point, a novel written with Gerald Lund.
• The Idea Economy, Why your ideas will have to create personal wealth and hope in an age of uncertainty. Co- authored with Rob Brazell.

For as long as the Mormon Internet has existed, Ex-Mormon women have been expressing concerns about abusive behavior by Ex-Mormon men.

Today a panel of Ex-Mormon women come together on Mormon Stories Podcast to introduce athe following six concepts: 1) Consent, 2) Deference to Patriarchy, 3) Gender Roles, 4) Modesty, 5) Sex Shaming, and 6) Victim Blaming.

The intent of this episode is to help educate Ex-Mormon men about how to treat Ex-Mormon women, particularly online and in Ex-Mormon communities.

Participants in the panel are: Hannah Dunnigan, Sarah Hess, Margaret Frances Phillips, and Elisha Lee.

Since Title IX passed in 1972 to prevent sex discrimination under any education program receiving Federal financial assistance, the religious exemption clause has gone virtually unchaellenched. For decades, the Department of Educations has granted Title IX exemptions allowing dozens of religious colleges like BYU and Liberty University to discriminate based on sex, gender identity, and sexual orientation, even when they receive millions of taxpayer dollars every single year.

Join us today at 4:00 pm MT as we interview attorney Paul Southwick, Chandler Horning (BYU) and Luke Wilson (Liberty University), about their groundbreaking class action lawsuit filed against the Department of Education. Chandler and Luke are among 33 former and current students from different federally-funded religious colleges who have been harmed by their discriminatory policies. The lawsuit argues that the Title IX religious exemptions “as applied to sexual and gender minority students, is unconstitutional and that the Department must enforce the protections of Title IX at all taxpayer-funded educational institutions, including at those institutions that discriminate and cause harm on the basis of sincerely held religious beliefs.”

Join me today as I interview Carah Burrell (TikTok's "Nuancehoe") who has quickly became one of the most notable (and hilarious) ex-Mormons on social media right now!

In addition to her great success on TikTok, Carah also has a very interesting Mormon story - from her unique upbringing in the church, to her experiences navigating the LA comedy scene with her husband, as a young mormon couple. Carah also had the opportunity to work for the LDS church's public relations department, which has further added to her interesting perspective on the Mormon church.

You can check out some of Carah's work here:

• https://www.tiktok.com/@nuancehoe?
• https://linktr.ee/nuancehoe

Join me today as I interview Salt Lake City lawyer, Mark Naugle, who developed the website QuitMormon.com - which aims to give former Mormons a more streamlined way to resign their membership from the LDS church, without the need to meet with a church authority figure. Since 2015, Mark has filed over 80,000 legal resignation letters with the LDS church. However, in response to his website, the church recently changed the terms to now require a notarized letter in order to apply for resignation.

Listen along to hear Mark's personal story, how QuitMormon.com came to be, and what he is doing now to continually challenge the LDS church on this issue.

• What happens when a Mormon bishop falls in love with a member of his congregation?  How could this happen?
• What situation would make a divorced single mother returning to Mormon church activity fall in love with her married bishop?
• In what ways does the calling of Mormon bishop, including both excessive time demands on the Bishop and the practice of one-on-one "worthiness" interviews with single women, put excessive strain on bishops, their marriages, and their families - making infidelity more likely?
• Should divorced single women (or anyone for that matter) seek life counseling from a Mormon bishop?  Are bishops trained and qualified to do life counseling?
• How could a bishop and a divorced single mother come to believe that they were both engaged in a God-approved polygamous relationship?  Does a story like this help us better understand the Chad Daybell / Lori Vallow story, or the Joseph Smith story?
• What happens when a Mormon bishop loses his faith, while he is serving as bishop?  What type of pressure does that put on the bishop, his wife, and their family?
• What is it like to be viewed as "the mistress" in a public relationship that is viewed as scandalous (i.e., a Mormon bishops falls in love with a ward member, loses his faith, asks to be released, and the entire ward/stake knows)?
• What happens when a Mormon stake president is forced to release a Mormon bishop early?  What types of pressure does this situation put on the stake president, the ward, the bishop, and the bishop's family?  How does the Mormon church handle such situations?
• If you happen to fall in love with someone who isn't your spouse mid-life, how do you decide whether to stay in the struggling or failed marriage to improve it vs. leave the marriage to seek greater joy/fulfillment?  Is there ever a time to "cut your losses" in a marriage and move on, or should most/all marriages be preserved at virtually all cost?
• Can 2nd marriages work, with all the complexities of divorce, ex-spouses, step-children, etc.?  Or are they generally doomed to fail?
• How in the world do you ever heal from a lifetime of trauma as a Mormon?  Is healing and growth possible?  If so, what are some resources that can be helpful?

Today's epic two-part Mormon stories interview with Matthew and Elizabeth explores all of these questions, and much, much more.  Buckle in for a 7+ hour in-depth interview.

I promise you that you will not be disappointed with these two strong, vulnerable, inspiring humans.

• What happens when a Mormon bishop falls in love with a member of his congregation?  How could this happen?
• What situation would make a divorced single mother returning to Mormon church activity fall in love with her married bishop?
• In what ways does the calling of Mormon bishop, including both excessive time demands on the Bishop and the practice of one-on-one "worthiness" interviews with single women, put excessive strain on bishops, their marriages, and their families - making infidelity more likely?
• Should divorced single women (or anyone for that matter) seek life counseling from a Mormon bishop?  Are bishops trained and qualified to do life counseling?
• How could a bishop and a divorced single mother come to believe that they were both engaged in a God-approved polygamous relationship?  Does a story like this help us better understand the Chad Daybell / Lori Vallow story, or the Joseph Smith story?
• What happens when a Mormon bishop loses his faith, while he is serving as bishop?  What type of pressure does that put on the bishop, his wife, and their family?
• What is it like to be viewed as "the mistress" in a public relationship that is viewed as scandalous (i.e., a Mormon bishops falls in love with a ward member, loses his faith, asks to be released, and the entire ward/stake knows)?
• What happens when a Mormon stake president is forced to release a Mormon bishop early?  What types of pressure does this situation put on the stake president, the ward, the bishop, and the bishop's family?  How does the Mormon church handle such situations?
• If you happen to fall in love with someone who isn't your spouse mid-life, how do you decide whether to stay in the struggling or failed marriage to improve it vs. leave the marriage to seek greater joy/fulfillment?  Is there ever a time to "cut your losses" in a marriage and move on, or should most/all marriages be preserved at virtually all cost?
• Can 2nd marriages work, with all the complexities of divorce, ex-spouses, step-children, etc.?  Or are they generally doomed to fail?
• How in the world do you ever heal from a lifetime of trauma as a Mormon?  Is healing and growth possible?  If so, what are some resources that can be helpful?

Today's epic two-part Mormon stories interview with Matthew and Elizabeth explores all of these questions, and much, much more.  Buckle in for a 7+ hour in-depth interview.

I promise you that you will not be disappointed with these two strong, vulnerable, inspiring humans.

This week in the April 2021 Liahona (Mormon church monthly magazine) the LDS church released 6 online articles attempting to coach faithful Mormons on how to better treat family members who have lost their faith in the Mormon church. I my opinion, they really are groundbreaking articles (even though they were confusingly withheld from the printed publication).

Join us on 3/26/2021 as we discuss, praise, and critique the 6 articles. I would love your feedback on the articles as well. The 6 articles are:

• Are You the Only Member of the Church in Your Family? You’re Not Alone
• An Unexpected Lesson from Ammon for Today’s Challenges
• How My Heart Changed When My Brother Left the Church
• Maintaining Hope and Keeping Your Marriage Strong If Your Spouse Leaves the Church
• Questions to Ask Yourself before You Talk about Less-Active Members
• What You Can Do When Others Don’t Believe

Join us now as Anthony Miller and Douglas Stilgoe join me to break down the recent rebranding and partial repenting of FAIRMormon, which includes:

1. Taking down the controversial "Kwaku" / Cardon Ellis / Bradley Witbeck videos that attacked Jeremy Runnells and John Dehlin,
2. Promising to cease ad hominem attacks, and
3. A name change.

Show Notes:

• To review Jeremy Runnells' "Debunking FAIRMormons' This is the Show (TITS)", click here.
• "Nemo's" YouTube Channel can be found here.
• Anthony Miller's "Unpacking Ambiguity" blog can be found here.
• FAIRMormon's new announcement about their name change, and about forsaking their long history of ad hominem apologetics can be found here.

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Join me today for this amazing Mormon Stories interview as I talk to Jared Hess and Tyler Measom about the making of their new Netflix documentary, "Murder Among the Mormons."

Join us today as the brilliant John Hamer returns to help us dig deeper into:

1. The main Mark Hofmann Forgeries, and
2. The main attempts to "cover-up" unfavorable history by the Mormon church.

Today I share (and provide reactions to) a recent fireside given on February 28, 2021 by faithful Mormon scholar and Utah State University professor Patrick Mason given at the Logan Utah Cache West Stake.

This is a re-recording. I decided to re-record because I felt as though my reactions were too angry. Honestly, I felt a bit unhinged. I know that many of you valued the passion. I'm sincerely sorry to disappoint you.  My overall goal has always been for the podcast to feel "safe" for questioning Mormons, and I don't want to lose that for this important episode.

I have included screen shots of the questions that were submitted by questioning stake members during the Q&A, which can be found here. I have also included the stake president statement that they decided NOT share Patrick’s presentation on the stake Facebook page as they had said they would during the presentation.

Finally, a HUGE thanks to Angelina at GroveTrove Getaways for supplying us with this video. If you want to thank Angelina, you can find her on Instagram @agrovetrove.

Today I share a recent fireside given on February 28, 2021 by faithful Mormon scholar and Utah State University professor Patrick Mason given at the Logan Utah Cache West Stake.

This is a version that has no commentary.  I have released adjacent to this episode a version with commenatry.

Finally, a HUGE thanks to Angelina at GroveTrove Getaways for supplying us with this video. If you want to thank Angelina, you can find her on Instagram @agrovetrove.

This week Mormonism and the world (basically) have been captivated by the new Netflix Documentary "Murder Among the Mormons" - which covers the Salt Lake City bombings of 1985, and is currently #2 in the USA on Netflix.  (SPOILER ALERT!!!!)

While reactions to the documentary (produced & directed by friends Jared Hess and Tyler Measom) have been universally SUPER positive, many progressive and post-Mormons have expressed a wish that the documentary would have spent more time discussing the role of the Mormon church in: a) creating the environment that gave rise to the bombings, b) attempting to cover up/hide its problematic history, and c) obstruct or hinder the investigation of the bombings.

I this epic, 2-part, 6 hour interview with Mormon/Ex-Mormon legend Sandra Tanner, we cover many of the questions/topics/issues that progressive and post-Mormons have been wanting to know about the Mormon church, Mark Hofmann, the bombings, and the investigations, such as:

• What do we know about Mark Hofmann's childhood and adolescent years?
• When and how did Mark Hofmann lose his Mormon faith?
• What are some of the direct and undeniable similarities between Joseph Smith and Mark Hofmann?
• What can we ascertain about Mark Hofmann's possible motives for forgery?
• What issues regarding Mormon Church truth claims were being discussed publicly during Mark Hofmann's childhood and adolescence years, and what written materials may have influenced him?
• What behavior on the part of the Mormon church in the 1960s and 1970s may have served as motivating factors for Hofmann?  Particularly, to what extent did the LDS Church participate in overt deception of its members that could have influenced him to turn on the church?
• What are Sandra's memories of Hofmann and his close associates like Shannon Flynn, Brent Metcalfe, Curt Bench, Lyn Jacobs, Brent Ashworth, etc.?  Were any of them suspected as accomplices?
• What do we know about the main Mormon-related Hofmann forgeries, and why were each relevant from a Mormon.history perspective?  How did Hofmann's forgeries intersect with and challenge Mormon church truth claims?  How did they stand to harm the church?
• What role did the Mormon church play in hiding and/or covering up Hofmann's forgeries?
• Perhaps most importantly, Sandra recounts the inspiring story of her husband, Jerald Tanner, discovering that Hofmann's Salamander Letter was a forgery a FULL YEAR before the bombings, how she and Jerald fought about his discovery, what Hofmann's reaction was to Jerald's discovery, and how it was received in the larger Mormon studies and news community (spoiler alert: it was largely ignored).
• Sandra also movingly discusses how she and Jerald were largely ignored and marginalized by the broader Mormon history community, including being denied a display table at Sunstone, and how many Mormon history scholars would take advantage of the Tanner's research without giving them any credit or citations.  She cites as the main reason of this mistreatment her and Jerald's willingness to question Joseph Smith's sincerity - which remains a taboo in the Mormon studies community to this day.
• Sandra recounts her memories of the bombings and of the investigations.
• Perhaps most importantly, what responsibility does the Mormon church play in contributing to the environment and led to the bombings?

All this, and so much more.  This is a 6 hour interview.

• Part 1 (4 hours) talks mostly about Sandra's memories during and after the bombings.
• Part 2 (2 hours) focuses more on Sandra's direct reactions to the documentary Murder Among the Mormons.

For your convenience we have created time codes that will let you know which parts of the videos you can jump to (if you want to jump around or refer certain parts to friends).

We hope you enjoy!!!!!!!  And a HUGE thanks to Sandra (and Jerald) Tanner for sharing with us her/their historic insight.  For me, this was a true honor.  MORE TO COME!!!!

- John Dehlin (March 10, 2021)

P.S.  If you value Sandra and her contributions to Mormon history, please support Sandra Tanner and Utah Lighthouse Ministry with your donations!!!

====================

00:01:32 - Sandra’s impressions of “Murder Among the Mormons”

00:14:39 - How the LDS church was portrayed in the documentary - positive vs. negative

00:21:06 - Could this documentary pose a challenge to some member’s faith?

00:23:16 - Truly’s role in the documentary & lawyers as church “historians”

00:30:20 - Was it smart for it not to be a “hit piece” in the LDS church?

00:42:11 - How the story is being revived

00:51:15 - Could Hofmann had any accomplices’?

00:54:44 - Heroes & villiain of the story

01:00:35 - Culpability of the LDS church & their obstructing of justice

01:04:13 - Sandra’s recommendations for books on this subject

01:10:47 - Legacy of the Hofmann scandal & its impact on Mormonism

01:22:56 - “Lying for the Lord” & how Joseph Smith set a president of dishonesty within the church

01:28:04 - Why people stay in the church after they have lost their faith

01:32:21 - Could there be another event like this that threatens the church?

01:34:35 - Sandra’s predictions for the future of Mormonism

01:39:48 - Upcoming biography on Jerald & Sandra Tanner

01:43:41 - Sandra’s experiences from Mormon Stories Podcast

01:50:07 - Reflections on Jerald Tanner

01:54:21 - Closing remarks 

This week Mormonism and the world (basically) have been captivated by the new Netflix Documentary "Murder Among the Mormons" - which covers the Salt Lake City bombings of 1985, and is currently #2 in the USA on Netflix.  (SPOILER ALERT!!!!)

While reactions to the documentary (produced & directed by friends Jared Hess and Tyler Measom) have been universally SUPER positive, many progressive and post-Mormons have expressed a wish that the documentary would have spent more time discussing the role of the Mormon church in: a) creating the environment that gave rise to the bombings, b) attempting to cover up/hide its problematic history, and c) obstruct or hinder the investigation of the bombings.

I this epic, 2-part, 6 hour interview with Mormon/Ex-Mormon legend Sandra Tanner, we cover many of the questions/topics/issues that progressive and post-Mormons have been wanting to know about the Mormon church, Mark Hofmann, the bombings, and the investigations, such as:

• What do we know about Mark Hofmann's childhood and adolescent years?
• When and how did Mark Hofmann lose his Mormon faith?
• What are some of the direct and undeniable similarities between Joseph Smith and Mark Hofmann?
• What can we ascertain about Mark Hofmann's possible motives for forgery?
• What issues regarding Mormon Church truth claims were being discussed publicly during Mark Hofmann's childhood and adolescence years, and what written materials may have influenced him?
• What behavior on the part of the Mormon church in the 1960s and 1970s may have served as motivating factors for Hofmann?  Particularly, to what extent did the LDS Church participate in overt deception of its members that could have influenced him to turn on the church?
• What are Sandra's memories of Hofmann and his close associates like Shannon Flynn, Brent Metcalfe, Curt Bench, Lyn Jacobs, Brent Ashworth, etc.?  Were any of them suspected as accomplices?
• What do we know about the main Mormon-related Hofmann forgeries, and why were each relevant from a Mormon.history perspective?  How did Hofmann's forgeries intersect with and challenge Mormon church truth claims?  How did they stand to harm the church?
• What role did the Mormon church play in hiding and/or covering up Hofmann's forgeries?
• Perhaps most importantly, Sandra recounts the inspiring story of her husband, Jerald Tanner, discovering that Hofmann's Salamander Letter was a forgery a FULL YEAR before the bombings, how she and Jerald fought about his discovery, what Hofmann's reaction was to Jerald's discovery, and how it was received in the larger Mormon studies and news community (spoiler alert: it was largely ignored).
• Sandra also movingly discusses how she and Jerald were largely ignored and marginalized by the broader Mormon history community, including being denied a display table at Sunstone, and how many Mormon history scholars would take advantage of the Tanner's research without giving them any credit or citations.  She cites as the main reason of this mistreatment her and Jerald's willingness to question Joseph Smith's sincerity - which remains a taboo in the Mormon studies community to this day.
• Sandra recounts her memories of the bombings and of the investigations.
• Perhaps most importantly, what responsibility does the Mormon church play in contributing to the environment and led to the bombings?

All this, and so much more.  This is a 6 hour interview.

• Part 1 (4 hours) talks mostly about Sandra's memories during and after the bombings.
• Part 2 (2 hours) focuses more on Sandra's direct reactions to the documentary Murder Among the Mormons.

For your convenience we have created YouTube time codes that will let you know which parts of the videos you can jump to (if you want to jump around or refer certain parts to friends).

We hope you enjoy!!!!!!!  And a HUGE thanks to Sandra (and Jerald) Tanner for sharing with us her/their historic insight.  For me, this was a true honor.  MORE TO COME!!!!

- John Dehlin (March 10, 2021)

P.S.  If you value Sandra and her contributions to Mormon history, please support Sandra Tanner and Utah Lighthouse Ministry with your donations!!!

====================

Part 1 Timecodes:

00:07:13 - Summary of Sandra’s background
00:14:51 - Sandra’s understanding of Mark Hofmann’s early life & beliefs
00:19:39 - Hofmann’s exposure to treasure digging and LDS truth claims
00:32:02 - Parallels between Mark Hofmann and Joseph Smith
00:36:12 - Theories surrounding the Golden Plates & Book of Mormon
00:45:30 - Speculations on Mark Hofmann’s faith crisis
00:48:17 - Sandra discusses Shannon Flynn
00:55:53 - More on Hofmann’s mission, & his research into Mormon history
00:57:03 - Salamander Letter
00:58:50 – Sandra on intentional deception by LDS Church leaders
01:00:58 – Hofmann first comes to Utah Lighthouse Ministry in 1978 to share first known forgery – on the 2nd Anointing
01:06:19 – Mark’s handwriting – juvenile “chicken scratch”
01:07:10 – The beginning of a discussion of Mark Hofmann’s possible motives
01:09:07 – Mark Hofmann’s lack of empathy - callousness with the bombings.
01:12:44 – Mark Hofmann’s ego & his desire to pull off the “ultimate deception”
01:14:23 – Hofmann’s desire to embarrass the church & expose the faults their “power of discernment”
01:18:50 – More comparisons between Joseph Smith and Mark Hofmann – Around their “Ponzi schemes” unraveling into chaos and violence
01:20:56 – Discussion of Anthon transcript - Hofmann’s first major (known) Mormon forgery
01:28:34 – Jerald Tanner first uncovers forgery in 1960s – Oliver Cowdery pamphlet
01:31:21 – Jerald Tanner received pushback on forgery claims - Fawn Brodie and Juanita Brooks state they will continue to use the document
01:35:19 – Discussion of original Anthon transcript
01:39:08 – Hofmann’s Joseph Smith III Succession Forgery
01:45:58 - Hofmann trying to paint Brigham Young in a bad light.
01:52:11 – Brent Ashworth describing Hofmann “fishing” for documents that collectors might want
01:53:01 - Hofmann begins a bidding war over his Joseph Smith III Succession document
01:54:11 - LDS church “front buyers”
01:57:09 – Hofmann’s claim to have the McLellin collection
02:05:19 – Lyn Jacobs & Sandra’s thoughts on his omission from the “Murder Among the Mormons” documentary
02:08:18 – A discussion of frequent questions regarding Hofmann’s sexuality
02:14:09 - Hofmann’s 1825 Letter from Joseph Smith to Josiah Stowell
02:17:42 – What LDS Church leaders knew about Joseph Smith’s use of folk magic and treasure digging
02:21:15 – The Smith family merging of folk magic with Christianity - Hyrum Smith’s use of “magic documents” & Joseph Smith’s use of the “Jupiter Talisman”
02:28:52 – LDS General Authorities consciously sanitizing Mormon church history (Hinckley, Oaks, Turley)
02:31:40 – Church Patriarch Smith showing magical papers at LDS church firesides in the 20th century
02:32:50 – Wilford C. Wood “buying up” valuable LDS Church artifacts
02:36:29 – Smearing critics - tragic story of LDS Church translator, Stan Larson, losing his testimony of Book of Mormon Historicity, and being forced out of LDS Church employment.
02:42:57 – Other LDS Scholars forced out or fired
02:44:40 – Discussion of top LDS Church leaders knowing the problems with the church’s core truth claims, but continuing to mislead members intentionally
02:46:55 – The “rule” that Joseph Smith can’t be known as an intentional deceiver
02:49:56 – Did Mormon General Authority Hugh B. Brown admit that he did not believe in Book of Abraham historicity to Thomas Ferguson?
02:51:46 – Did Mormon General Authority B.H. Roberts loose his faith in Book of Mormon historicity?
02:59:51 – The integrity of Jerald Tanner.
03:05:53 - Martin Harris as one of the three witnesses
03:07:26 - Potential motives and means for deception
03:12:39 - Do LDS General Authorities have the gift of discernment? The Anthon Manuscript and photo of Hofmann with LDS General Authorities
03:16:25 - Questioning authenticity of salamander letter
03:32:13 - “Salamander or Moroni?” pamphlet for Sunstone Symposium
03:46:07 - The unwritten rule of the Mormon history community – “Don’t question Joseph Smith’s sincerity, or face marginalization”
03:52:51 - How Jerald and Sandra Tanner were disrespected by the Mormon history community & treatment of the Tanners by Dialogue and Sunstone (Tanners not allowed to have display table at Sunstone)
03:56:13 – Begrudging acceptance of Tanners after Jerald is vindicated.
04:01:01 – How Sandra’s work affected the relationship with her sister, who was embarrassed by her work
04:03:05 – God was Sandra’s motivation to keep going.
04:07:41 – The McLellin papers & other Hofmann forgeries
04:09:11 – Sandra’s discussion of Richard Turley’s book on Hofmann, Victims, & Mormon church’s obstruction of the murder investigation
04:13:47 – Hofmann’s motives for murder & conviction
04:19:27 - Discussion of first murder
04:23:13 - Brent Ashworth as potential target of Hofmann’s 3rd bomb
04:33:04 - Mark Hofmann’s plan to forge the lost 116 pages of the Book of Mormon

"View of the Hebrews" is a book first published in 1823 by Ethan Smith of Vermont.  In "View of the Hebrews," Ethan Smith argues (among other things) that the Native Americans were descended from the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel.  This book was so popular that it had a second printing in 1825.  

Mormon General Authorities and apologists have feared "View of the Hebrews" for over a century, starting with B.H. Roberts in the early 1900s.

Why is "View of the Hebrews"  potentially problematic for the Mormon church and the Book of Mormon?  A few reasons:

• Joseph Smith claimed to have come up with the idea for the Book of Mormon the VERY SAME YEAR (1823) that "View of the Hebrews" was first published.  Coincidence?
• Ethan Smith (the author of "View of the Hebrews") was Oliver Cowdery's pastor in Vermont PRIOR to his working with Joseph Smith as Book of Mormon "scribe," and it is certain that Cowdery was familiar with the book.  Coincidence?
• Mormon General Authority and historian B.H. Roberts wrote hundreds of pages doing research on the disturbing similarities between View of the Hebrews and the Book of Mormon.  Later, B.H. Roberts went on to lose his testimony in the historicity of the Book of Mormon.  Coincidence?

Recently, the brilliant Radio Free Mormon decided to read "View of the Hebrews" from cover to cover to see what the "hubub" is all about.  

Join us as we explore the following questions:

• What is View of the Hebrews fundamentally about?
• What are the important similarities and differences between View of the Hebrews and the Book of Mormon?
• Was Ethan Smith's "View of the Hebrews" a source of inspiration for the Book of Mormon?
• What cultural dynamics were at play in upstate New York in the early 1820s that could have influenced BOTH books?
• Are there any direct connections between "View of the Hebrews" and Joseph Smith?
• Why has "View of the Hebrews" caused so much concern for Mormon apologists, from B.H. Roberts to today ? How have Mormon apologists responded to View of the Hebrews?
• Does "View of the Hebrews" present significant, compelling problems for LDS Church and Book of Mormon truth claims?

Chelsea and Nick Homer were both raised as devout Utah Mormons - with all the good and bad this entailed, and both were equally determined to have the perfect Mormon marriage and family.  After meeting at BYU and an extended, careful courtship, Chelsea and Nick were married in the Bountiful temple. Then their Mormon dream immediately began to fray.

Beginning with the wedding night/honeymoon, Chelsea and Nick experienced problems with sexual intimacy, due (in large part) to unhealthy messages they received around sexual "purity" and "modesty" as Mormon teens.  Then, a year into their marriage, Nick began to lose his testimony in the Mormon church - causing Nick and Chelsea to seriously contemplate divorce.

When it became clear that Nick was not going to perform the priesthood blessing for their their firstborn child, Chelsea and Nick decided to courageously post about their situation on her Instagram account, in part to defy the shaming and unhealthy rumors that so often accompany this situation within Mormonism (e.g., "Nick must be into PORN!"). This post was dated September 24, 2017.

Surprisingly to both Chelsea and Nick, a Public Relations employee for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints asked if Chelsea would write a post about this experience for the Church’s Instagram. This post (dated February 7, 2018) can be found here, and to date has 58,947 "likes."  Later, the LDS Church PR department asked Chelsea to author an article about navigating her Mormon mixed-faith marriage as a believing wife.  This heavily correlated article is entitled "Who Do I Choose - God or My Husband? - and was published by lds.org on July 25, 2018.

After these social media posts, Chelsea and Nick immediately began receiving messages, emails, and phone calls from other young Mormon couples also experiencing faith crises and/or mixed-faith marriages.  To help provide support and community for all the young Mormon women who were struggling with faith crises, Chelsea formed on July 31, 2019 a Facebook group entitled "Faith Journey Meetups," which at present has over 2,000 members.  The description of this group is as follows:

Welcome! This is a meetup hub for women who are actively navigating their personal faith journeys anywhere along the LDS belief spectrum. Come, make friends, schedule get-togethers. This is a safe place to find support and turn internet acquaintances into real life friends.

Eventually, Chelsea also lost her faith in the Mormon church, and today Nick and Chelsea are navigating a life of healing, growth, and joy after Mormonism.

This is their story.

Hey Mormon Stories Listeners!

I am planning some super-cool interviews for the newly released "Murder Among the Mormons" documentary (released today on Netflix).  A few SUPER important requests for you all:

• Please watch it ASAP! It's fantastic!
• Please share it with all your believing Mormon family members and friends.  If they are concerned about the content, consider letting them know that:
  1. Richard Turley (former assistant LDS Church historian and head of LDS Church Public Affairs) participates in the documentary, and
  2. The documentary was carefully designed by both Jared and Tyler to be fair/balanced.  In my opinion, the doc is TOTALLY TBM worthy, so please watch it AND tell everyone about it!

I am planning several super cool interviews, including an interview with Directors - Jared Hess and Tyler Measom.  So stay tuned for that!

Here's where I need your help.  I would REALLY love it if you would share with me: a) your reactions to the doc, and b) any questions you have for Jared and Tyler. This will help me make the most of time with them (which I see as precious).  It will also stand as a cool record of progressive and post-Mormon reactions to the film.

Please post your reactions here!

If you want to watch additional coverage of the Mark Hofmann bombings on Mormon Stories Podcast, you can check out the following episodes:

• An interview with Allen D. Roberts and Curt Bench about Mark Hofmann.
• An interview with Brent Metcalfe - personal friend of Mark Hofmann.
• An interview with Sandra Tanner - whose husband Jerald determined that Mark Hofmann was a fraud before any of the LDS Church leaders.

Thank you in advance for your support!  And a HUGE thanks to Jared and Tyler for making a documentary that we ALL can be proud of as Mormons/Ex-Mormons. More soon!

• Do you miss the "spirituality" that you once felt as an active Mormon?
• Have you struggled to find joy/meaning/mental health after losing your Mormon faith?
• Are you still active in the LDS Church, but feeling spiritually empty as of late?

Join me as I assemble am amazing panel of wise humans to discuss "Spirituality After Mormonism." Panelists include Margi Weber Dehlin, Anthony D. Miller, Samantha Shelley (Zelph On The Shelf), and Holly Ashton Wallin.

You will not be disappointed with this amazing lineup of wise humans.

Feel free to bring your own questions, comments, and suggestions!!!!!

Show Notes:

Anthony's lists:

Join us today on Mormon Stories Podcast as we interview Mike Rinder - former top-level Scientology Executive. Mike was raised a Scientologist, knew L. Ron Hubbard personally, and became David Miscavige's "right hand man" as he lead Scientology's "Office of Special Affairs" (OSA). The OSA handled media and public relations, legal and government relations, and dealing with the "enemies of Scientology."

Mike appeared in the Scientology documentary "Going Clear," as well as in the documentary TV Series "Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath." He currently co-hosts a podcast with Leah Remini called "Scientology: Fair Game."

Hey Mormon Stories Listeners - I need your help!!!! This Friday (9am mountain time) I will be interviewing Mike Rinder - a former high-level leader of the Church of Scientology. I only have an hour with Mike, so I want to spend at least a few minutes of the hour comparing the Mormon church with the Church of Scientology.

To be clear - I have studied Scientology enough to know that it is deeply problematic....from literally kidnapping/imprisoning members, to having members physically beaten, to militantly suing members, etc. In short, I know that Scientology is a brutal, inhumane, super-harmful cult. Consequently, I am also fully aware that any comparison between the Mormon church and the Church of Scientology is deeply fraught. But hear me out.

I once read in Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs, and Steel" that sometimes the less immediately lethal viruses are often the most harmful viruses overall, primarily BECAUSE they are less deadly than their counterparts. In other words, if a virus is so deadly that it immediately kills its hosts, it has a tougher time spreading, and ultimately harms fewer organisms. Conversely, if a virus doesn't kill its host, but makes its hosts sick enough for a long enough time, the virus can spread much more successfully to a much larger population, and do more harm overall to many more people . Get it?

And so this is where I would like your feedback...and it's only an intellectual exercise. Here is the question:

If the variables we are measuring include:
1) Total human hours extracted from members without fully informed consent (total hours wasted under false pretenses, in a sense),
2) Total abuse/pain/suffering inflicted on humans under false pretenses, and
3) Total $$$ amount fraudulently extracted from its members over the lifetime of the church....again, under false pretenses and without informed consent....

...could an argument be made that the Mormon church, in aggregate, causes more overall harm than the Church of Scientology...in part BECAUSE it is somewhat less severe overall?

Also, what arguments/points am I missing?

Please make your best case below (one way or the other), and I will do my best to incorporate your input into my discussion with Mike Rinder on Friday.

Also, if you have any questions for Mike, please share them below and I will try my best to incorporate them.

THANKS IN ADVANCE!

John Dehlin

P.S. Please know that I KNOW that the Mormon Church does a TON of good in the world (particularly for its members). Believe me....I see that, and I believe that. I am talking about the harm that the Mormon Church causes IN SPITE of all the good it does as well.

Join us as we talk with cult expert Steven Hassan about how to help a loved one who believes in and follows the QAnon conspiracy cult. Questions we will address include:

• What is QAnon?
• Does QAnon qualify as a harmful cult?
• How is QAnon harming people, families, and our nation?
• How can you help a loved one who believes in and follows AQnon, or any other destructive cult?

Dr. Steven Hassan's Reddit AMA (Q&A) at QAnonCasualties entitled "How to Help People Involved in QAnon" can be found here.

Steven's main web site is: Freedom of Mind.

Books Mentioned in Today's Episode:

• Combating Cult Mind Control
• Freedom of Mind: Helping Loved Ones Leave Controlling People, Cults, and Beliefs
• The Cult of Trump

Cult Documentaries Mentioned in Today's Episode:

• • The Vow NXIVM Documentary Series
  • Seduced: Inside the NXIVM Cult
  • The Great Hack
  • The Social Dilemma
  • People You May Know
  • Going Clear
  • Wild, Wild Country
  • 4th Generation Warfare

Is it possible to stay active in the LDS Church in 2021 after....

....learning all of the problematic history... ....becoming an ally for LGBTQ Mormons... ...becoming a feminist... ...becoming an "intellectual Mormon"... and after losing one's orthodox faith?

More importantly, why would anyone WANT to?

In Part 1 of my two-part interview with dear friend and faith transitions coach Jana Spangler, Jana told us the story of her Mormon faith journey, which includes:

• Battling with perfectionism as an LDS teen and young adult.
• Feeling broken and inadequate as a single Mormon woman attending the University Utah, struggling to meet the church's standards of "worthiness."
• Being threatened with an LDS Disciplinary Council be a well-meaning Mormon bishop, and how that actually HELPED turn Jana's life around at the time.
• Finding and marrying Rob - who "checked all the Mormon boxes" at the time.
• Batting with infertility.
• Experiencing self-doubt and depression as a Mormon Mom.
• How Jana's passion for self-improvement and retreats/workshops led to a Mormon faith crisis.
• Jana's shifting views of Christ's atonement, which include absolute, unconditional love.
• Jana's courage to share her testimony struggles with her Holladay, Utah ward and stake.
• How untraditional Mormon podcast hosts, authors, and organizations (such as Bill Reel, Gina Colvin, Dan Wotherspoon, John Dehlin, Thomas Wirthlin McConkie, Sunstone, etc.), along with a supportive husband and understanding church leaders, helped Jana find a way to stay ACTIVE in the LDS Church.
• What factors led Jana to decide to stay active in the LDS Church...for now.

In Part 2, Jana provides a more detailed framework for how others can find a way to remain active in the LDS Church if they so desire, inspired by the works of Richard Rohr and James Fowler (among others).

Is it possible to stay active in the LDS Church in 2021 after....

....learning all of the problematic history... ....becoming an ally for LGBTQ Mormons... ...becoming a feminist... ...becoming an "intellectual Mormon"... and after losing one's orthodox faith?

More importantly, why would anyone WANT to?

In Part 1 of my two-part interview with dear friend and faith transitions coach Jana Spangler, Jana tells us the story of her Mormon faith journey, which includes:

• Battling with perfectionism as an LDS teen and young adult.
• Feeling broken and inadequate as a single Mormon woman attending the University Utah, struggling to meet the church's standards of "worthiness."
• Being threatened with an LDS Disciplinary Council be a well-meaning Mormon bishop, and how that actually HELPED turn Jana's life around at the time.
• Finding and marrying Rob - who "checked all the Mormon boxes" at the time.
• Batting with infertility.
• Experiencing self-doubt and depression as a Mormon Mom.
• How Jana's passion for self-improvement and retreats/workshops led to a Mormon faith crisis.
• Jana's shifting views of Christ's atonement, which include absolute, unconditional love.
• Jana's courage to share her testimony struggles with her Holladay, Utah ward and stake.
• How untraditional Mormon podcast hosts, authors, and organizations (such as Bill Reel, Gina Colvin, Dan Wotherspoon, John Dehlin, Thomas Wirthlin McConkie, Sunstone, etc.), along with a supportive husband and understanding church leaders, helped Jana find a way to stay ACTIVE in the LDS Church.
• What factors led Jana to decide to stay active in the LDS Church...for now.

In Part 2, Jana provides a more detailed framework for how others can find a way to remain active in the LDS Church if they so desire, inspired by the works of Richard Rohr and James Fowler (among others).

Recently, BYU Egyptologist John Gee published an article via the online Mormon apologetic website "The Interpreter" - attacking the scholarship of the Joseph Smith Papers Project, specifically Volume 4 of "The Joseph Smith Papers Revelations and Translations." The article is entitled: "Fantasy and Reality in the Translation of the Book of Abraham."

Gee's main attack targets are recently retired BYU professor Brian Hauglid and current LDS church employee Robin Jensen.

- Why would a BYU professor be attacking the work of the Joseph Smith Papers project - both of which are owned and controlled by the LDS Church?

- What issues are at stake in this battle between old style and new style Mormon apologists?

Join me and Radio Free Mormon on Friday at 11:15am Utah time as we discuss the history and details of this "civil war" within the world of Mormon apologetics.

Please join me as I interview Dr. William L. Davis about his book "Visions in a Seer Stone: Joseph Smith and the Making of the Book of Mormon."

In this interdisciplinary work, William L. Davis examines Joseph Smith's 1829 creation of the Book of Mormon, the foundational text of the Latter Day Saint movement. Positioning the text within the history of early American oratorical techniques, sermon culture, educational practices, and the passion for self-improvement, Davis elucidates both the fascinating cultural contexts for the creation of the Book of Mormon and the central role of oral culture in early nineteenth-century America.

Drawing on performance studies, religious studies, literary culture, and the history of early American education, Davis analyzes Smith’s process of oral composition. How did he produce a history spanning a period of 1,000 years, filled with hundreds of distinct characters and episodes, all cohesively tied together in an overarching narrative? Eyewitnesses claimed that Smith never looked at notes, manuscripts, or books—he simply spoke the words of this American religious epic into existence. Judging the truth of this process is not Davis's interest. Rather, he reveals a kaleidoscope of practices and styles that converged around Smith's creation, with an emphasis on the evangelical preaching styles popularized by the renowned George Whitefield and John Wesley.

William L. Davis, an independent scholar, holds a Ph.D. in theater and performance and has published in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought; John Bunyan Studies: A Journal of Reformation and Nonconformist Culture; Leviathan: A Journal of Melville Studies; Style; Text and Performance Quarterly; and Textual Cultures.

Dr. William L. Davis’ book, “Visions in a Seer Stone: Joseph Smith and the Making of the Book of Mormon” can be purchased in the following ways:

University of North Carolina Press

Amazon

For those who really care about Mormon Stories Podcast, and particularly for those who donate, please provide feedback when you can.

Thanks!

John

Join us for a review of Fiona and Terryl Givens' new book: "All Things New: Rethinking Sin, Salvation, and Everything in Between."

According to Amazon: "In this book, Fiona and Terryl Givens trace the roots of our religious vocabulary, explore how a flawed inheritance compounds the wounds and challenges of a life devoted to discipleship, and suggest ways of reformulating our language in more healthy ways all in the hope that, as B. H. Roberts urged, we may all cooperate in the works of the Spirit to find a truer expression of a gospel restored." Panelists include Jana Spangler, Anthony D. Miller, and Brittney Hartley.

After being raised by an orthodox Mormon mother and a "redneck, somewhat Jack Mormon Pioneer stock dad," Gretchen Day decided that she was going to be an "all in" Mormon mother.  After getting engaged at age 19 (as a BYU Freshman), Gretchen went on to get married in the LDS temple, and to fulfill many of the stereotypes of a Utah County Ultra-Orthodox Mormon mother, including:

• Having 8 children.
• Homeschooling her children using Book of Mormon-based curriculum.
• Raising her children with little to no media.
• Imposing strict "modesty" guidelines on her children (mostly her daughters).
• Doing at least one underwater home birth.
• Pursuing strict dietary practices ("perfect eating) such as restricting sugar, eating only raw, vegan foods, etc.

Over time, Gretchen's ultra-orthodox Mormon dream began to crumble in several different ways:

• She began to experience serious depression.
• She started making serious life decisions based on "spiritual experiences" based on feelings -- that may not have been very healthy for her (in hindsight).
• Some of her children started to lose their testimonies of the church.
• She had a son who became seriously depressed and ultimately suicidal, based in part on inhumane "worthiness" interviews conducted by well-intentioned bishops, mission, and stake presidents - who were/are operating within an abusive system.  This included feeling pressure to lie about his faith crisis to his home ward and BYU bishop, in order to keep his place at BYU and to stay in good standing with the church.
• She began learning about factual Mormon church history (e.g., polygamy, Book of Mormon problems), which became deeply triggering for her.

As Gretchen's faith began to crumble, she started to feel trapped within the Utah County Mormon bubble.

• Should she lie to her son about her faith journey, as he was preparing to leave on his mission, or should she be honest with him and risk spoiling his experience?
• Was she trapped in a "Mormon mafia" of sorts, with no escape?
• Should she "come out" to fellow ward members and leadership, and risk social ostracization?
• Or should she quietly "fade away" from church activity to avoid any conflict?

In Gretchen's case, she decided to leave the church in a very vocal fashion.  This has included:

• Writing a letter/email ward members to explain why she was leaving the church.
• Inviting her bishopric to attend a "Resignation Speech" that she offered to them, primarily with the intent of recovering her lost voice as a Mormon woman, and speaking her truth.
• Diving deeply into the "cult" and "unethical persuasion" literature,
• Creating a web site to share her story and perspectives with the world.
• Authoring a series of children's books to help parents educate their children about how to avoid falling prey to undue influence of any sort.

If you are seeking a powerful, inspiring story of one ultra-orthodox Utah county Mother's journey out of Mormonism, this is it.  If you enjoyed the interviews of folks like Donna Showalter, Leah Young, you will deeply treasure this interview (but only after it breaks your heart).

Gregory Barnes is a Mormon filmmaker and artist raised in Oak Park, Illinois. He studied film at BYU and served a Mormon mission in Argentina. Raised a faithful Mormon, Gregory was influenced by the comedic absurdity of exiting that Jell-O-obsessed desert religion.

Gregory currently is a Master’s Student at TISCH at NYU where he made his most recent short film The Touch of the Master’s Hand -- a dark comedy about a Mormon missionary who confesses an unusual pornography addiction to his mission president. The film premieres at the Sundance Film Festival this week.

Gregory's work has been featured by NPR, Playboy, and Pitchfork.

Clip from movie: https://letterboxd.com/festiville/story/exclusive-clip-greg-barnes-mormon-masturbation/?fbclid=IwAR1wLkfTSrP06TpCoMac0ccOdq_uKWvikcPE_ODomZ8gACJCBfwz-h939rI

https://fpg.festival.sundance.org/film-info/5fd1639604818b0ec7648fa7?fbclid=IwAR0_XlPZxkvM_JkWJbl3NrZV7EHJIdr5b-cZLmDzUAqWQlbBB0krBYjOTKo

https://www.gregorybarnes.com 

After losing your orthodox Mormon faith, have you given up on the possibility of any sort of belief in and/or association with "God" or "Jesus"? More importantly, are you seeking to fill some of the existential and/or spiritual holes left over after your faith crisis?

Today I sit down with John Hamer, Community of Christ Seventy and pastor of the Community of Christ Toronto Congregation to talk about why he thinks theists especially, but also some atheists have adopted a counterproductive position about the idea of "God." We'll also discuss why he thinks this is even a relevant conversation to have in the 21st century. Didn't rational people hash this all out in the Enlightenment? John Hamer believes that the majority of Christians including many intellectual leaders of the movement took a wrong turn centuries ago and with negative consequences for the whole path of Western civilization today. He proposes going back and exploring an alternative path, including opening up the term "God" as a variable in need of undefinition and reexamination. What, if anything, might this accomplish?

Tune in and pose your own questions and objections.

John Larsen is one of the most influential and well-respected figures within Modern progressive and post-Mormon communities.  John (along with his ex-wife Zilpha) was the co-host of Mormon Expression podcast for several years, and he is an occasional host of Sunstone Podcast.  He has appeared on Mormon Stories Podcast several times over the past decade.

In today's episode I bring John Larson back, and we discuss several topics, including:

-Divorce after a faith crisis.

-Raising children with mental illness after a faith crisis.

-Alcohol and drug use after a faith crisis.

-Non-monogamy/swinging after a faith crisis.

-The LDS Church's response to the COVID pandemic.

-The impact of the QAnon phenomenon within the United States, and within the LDS Church.

-How conservative politics within the U.S. are tearing apart some Utah wards and families.

-What it would take to bring John Larsen back as a podcaster.

-The need for kindness within both political and religious discourse, and how challenging this can be.

John Larsen is one of my favorite thinkers in modern Mormonism, and is a fantastic guest.  you will not be disappointed with this episode.

=============

Some of the Mormon Expression episodes mention in this episode include:

-Episode 27: The Word of Wisdom for Dummies

-Episode 95a: Doctrine and Covenants 132 for Dummies Part 1

-Episode 95b: Doctrine and Covenants 132 for Dummies part 2

-Episode 275: How to Become an Ex-ex-Mormon

-Episode 276: How to build a transoceanic vessel

John's past Mormon Stories Podcast episode include:

-Episodes 186-187: "Mormon Stories Broadcasts Live with John Larsen and You!"

-Episode 312: Mormon Expression Interviews John Dehlin

-Episode 531: "John Larsen's Mormon Expression"

-Episode 1097: "Building Community after Mormonism: A Conversation with John Larsen"

In this short Mormon Stories Episode I sat down with Trent Told, who created a prototype of Joseph Smith’s Book of Mormon Plates. Based on Dan Vogel’s theories surrounding the “Tin Plates” and the Book of Mormon, Trent created a proof of concept model of the Book of Mormon made out of tin, in order to help demonstrate the physical size and weight of the plates. This model is also intended to help illustrate complexity and improbability that Joesph Smith could have possessed and handled actual Gold Plates (let alone run with them).

Join me today for one of my favorite Mormon Stories Podcast interviews/interviewees of all time. In today's episode, Stanford University graduate student Amy McPhie Allebest returns to discuss the development of patriarchy within human civilization, with a specific focus on the religious context. She also announces her new podcast entitled "Breaking Down Patriarchy - An Essential Texts Book Club."

Patriarchy has incredibly deep roots in the human condition, and harms everyone - especially women, but also men, youth, and children. This episode is for ALL of us, and you will not be disappointed with Amy's incredible knowledge, insight, and compassion.

The Oxford Dictionary defines patriarchy as "a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it." All cultures all over the world practice patriarchy, sometimes violently, sometimes seemingly benevolently, sometimes in ways we are so accustomed to that we don't even notice. But when was patriarchy instituted? How? Why? Who has challenged this system, and how have their critiques changed the world?

Breaking Down Patriarchy: An Essential Texts Book Club answers these questions, as well as addressing the very personal ways that patriarchy impacts our lives and relationships. Every week, an intelligent, insightful, relatable guest joins host Amy McPhie Allebest to read and discuss a historical text. Listeners are invited to read the book ahead of time, but even if they are not able to read, Amy and her reading partners provide a thorough "breakdown" of the issues and powerful, practical takeaways that benefit the real lives of women - and men! - everywhere.

Check out the introductory episode to hear about the reading list, and the egalitarian vision that aims to foster the flourishing of all human beings, including boys and men.

Amy's Bio: I grew up in Colorado as the oldest of 5 children, reading, writing, drawing, singing, and practicing the piano and violin. I attended Brigham Young University, where I met Erik Allebest during my first week of freshman year, studied abroad in Israel, lived in Chile for a year and a half as a missionary, and married Erik all before graduating with a degree in English. Erik and I moved around - to Colorado, Southern California, Utah, Spain, and Northern California - while Erik started and ran chess businesses for a living (primarily chess.com) and I stayed home to raise our four children. Those four kids have become brilliant, hilarious people and are our very best friends. I am a long-time trail runner, a recent CrossFitter, a lifelong reader and writer, and an almost-graduate of Stanford University's Master's of Liberal Arts program.

Web Site Link: www.breakingdownpatriarchy.com

Facebook Page: facebook.com/breakingdownpatriarchy

Instagram: @bdownpatriarchy

Twitter: @bdownpatriarchy #patriarchy #feminism #mormon

In my opinion, one of the most damaging books ever published by the Mormon Church is Spencer W. Kimball’s “The Miracle of Forgiveness.” Among other things, this book teaches that:

• No young Mormon man or woman is worthy to go on a mission if they masturbate.
• Masturbation alone leads to masturbation with others, which leads to “homosexuality.”
• Being gay or lesbian is “ugly,” “repugnant,” and comparable to a disease.
• “Homosexuality” leads to bestiality.
• “Homosexuality” can be easily “cured.”
• People who have pre-marital sex, and even rape victims, are “blighted” and “scarred.”
• It is far better to die than to lose one’s “virtue.”
• Death by suicide is a sign of foolishness, faithlessness and/or weakness and/or sin.

To be clear, this book is currently sold at Deseret Book, and remains on the book shelves of hundreds of thousands of Mormons across the world.

In this short presentation, I offer my brief argument for why I believe that “The Miracle of Forgiveness” should be removed from Deseret Book, and I let listeners and viewers know what they can do to help. I also share my thoughts on what the Mormon Church can do to help “atone” for selling this damaging book for several decades.

How You Can Help:

• Share this Presentation.
• Email Deseret Book:
  • service@deseretbook.com
  • mediainquiry@deseretbook.com
  • hrdept@deseretbook.com
• Call Deseret Book
  • 1-800-453-4532 (Toll-Free US and Canada)
  • 1-801-517-3369 (International)
• Speak to any influencers you know.
• Do what you can to remove this book from the access of people who might be vulnerable (book shelves, etc.).
• Please share with me/us what you did, and the reactions.
• Remember the date: 1/18/2021.
• Monitor deseretbook.com for when they take the book down.
• I will throw a party when it’s gone (likely this summer post-COVID)

P.S. This is a re-recording to make the video less “ranty,” and to remove the discussion of book bans and book burnings, which is not useful. HUGE thanks to everyone who gave feedback on this. I always want to be a constructive voice.

Please join me and Radio Free Mormon for a discussion of “Laura A. Gaddy vs. the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” – a class action lawsuit currently before the United States District Court for the District of Utah, with Robert J. Shelby as the Presiding Judge.

The main purpose of the case is as follows: “The case seeks certification as a class action based upon the large number of former Mormons who have been deceived by Defendant COP’s fraud, as a result of the Mormon Corporate Empire’s longstanding coordinated lies and material omissions about its history as well as lies about its use of tithing donations and how it would use that tithing in the future.”

Two of the main documents central to the case can be found here (for your review):

• Gaddy v. LDS MDO Granting Defendants Motion to Dismiss
• Gaddy v. LDS Amended Complaint
• Gaddy vs. LDS Opposition to Motion to Dismiss Amended Complaint

Click here to contact Kay Burningham (the attorney on this case), or to follow this case.

Financial donations to support the past and ongoing expenses for the case can be made here.

P.S.  One primary motivator for this episode is to fundraise for Radio Free Mormon so that he can be supported in his podcasting efforts, and so that we can keep him around for a very long time.  Please click here to become a monthly donor to Radio Free Mormon.

In a recent video released by paid actors supported by FAIRMormon and the More Good Foundation, Kwaku El, Brad Witbeck, and Cardon Ellis make the claim that I and Mormon Stories (and Jeremy Runnells) are intentionally "homewrecking for profit" with the work we do.

In an attempt to combat this hurtful claim, I reached out to our amazing Mormon Stories Listeners, requesting your help by sharing if/how Mormon Stories Podcast has helped your family. I have been deeply honored and humbled by the overwhelming support we have received, and would like to personally thank each one of you that were brave enough to share your own “Mormon Story” with me.

Mormon Stories podcast seeks to understand, explore, challenge, and improve the Mormon experience through stories, and has never had the intention of harming families in any way. In fact, we strive to support and mend family relationships by promoting healthy communication skills and unconditional love.

The primary objectives of Mormon Stories podcast include:

1. Providing support to Mormons who are transitioning away from either orthodox Mormonism, or from Mormonism altogether, with a particular emphasis on:
2. • Minimizing the anxiety, depression, and occasional suicidality that can accompany a transition away from religious orthodoxy.
   • Reducing the number of unnecessary divorces attributable to Mormon faith crises.
   • Creating a community of support for liberal/progressive and post-Mormons.
3. Building greater awareness regarding accurate LDS/Mormon church history, doctrine, and theology – so that both active, believing Mormons and investigators of the church can make informed decisions regarding their investment in, and engagement with the church.
4. Identifying opportunities for growth/improvement within the LDS church, and within broader Mormon culture.

Mormon Stories Podcast by no means benefits from the destruction of families, and we are saddened to see our community mis-represented in this way. It is my hope that the personal accounts represented in this video will be evidence of how Mormon Stories has actually benefited the lives of our listeners, and lay to rest the claim that Jeremy Runnells and myself have ever participated in “homewrecking for profit.”

Thank you.

Recently two friends of mine (Liz Cannon and Ray Purcell) asked to interview me about my role and experiences over the past 20 years trying to support people experiencing a Mormon faith crisis.

This is our interview.

Note: This interview is not a "typical" Mormon Stories Podcast interview, in that it warrants a PG-13 "rating" due to some adult language and topics in the interview.  Listener and viewer discretion is advised.

I hope you enjoy.

My reaction to yesterday's riot at the U.S. Capitol (January 6, 2021).

Jim Bennett is the author of "A Faithful Reply to the CES Letter." He is also the son of the late Utah U.S. Senator Bob Bennett.

In Part 5 of a multi-part series with Jim, I bring to Jim listener/viewer questions, along with several questions/observations of my own, into a passionate, 4 hour final conversation.

If you were frustrated that I gave Jim "a pass" in the previous episodes, you may be more satisfied with this episode.

Jim Bennett is the author of "A Faithful Reply to the CES Letter."  He is also the son of the late Utah U.S. Senator Bob Bennett.

In Part 4 of a multi-part series with Jim, we discuss in-depth his approach to maintaining belief in the Mormon church AFTER exposure to all of the historical and social problems currently vexing the LDS church, as highlighted in Jeremy Runnell's groundbreaking book "CES Letter: My Search for Answers to my Mormon Doubts."

Today's episode covers:

• Women and the church and the Ordain Women movement.
• The Mormon church's approach to "Law of Chastity" issues including pornography, masturbation, and one-on-one "worthiness interviews."
• The Mormon church's handling and mishandling of sexual abuse cases.
• The Mormon church's treatment (including excommunication) of activists and critics.
• A closing discussion of the faith crisis "epidemic" within the modern LDS church, and Jim's opinions about the best way to handle the situation.

To thank Jim for his participation so far in this series, please email him at: jim@canonizer.com.